Deadline: White House : MSNBCW : June 12, 2024 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

so high. is there blame to be put on corporations for pushing prices higher? >> they're cutting them quickly. the white house says that. they're cutting them quickly because they passed all the price increases along for two years and reached the breaking point for consumers. now they're cutting quickly. >> good. christine romans, thank you so much for making sense of it. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. inspired in large part by our conversation with my friend and colleague rachel maddow about how we cover this moment, this convicted ex president, current president, this extraordinary moment. we have a story for you. starts like this. shot and chaser. the time when the ex

president's, convicted felon's rants about sharks, electric boats, rather he would be electrocuted or eaten by a shark have everybody talking about his state of minds. at that moment, a merchant of right wing talking points and sometimes even disinformation is going into overdrive with calculated and relentless regional attacks on president joe biden. statements by donald trump on the other hand so unhinged. fox news didn't carry them or broadcast them. didn't air them after the fact. in the words of stephen king that speech was like listening to your senile uncle after he has that third drink. that performance and others like it or reviving questions about trump's stability, mental acuity, questions trump loves to talk about. watch. >> the next day they'll say he's

crazy. the next day they'll say he's incompetent. >> this is one of the dumbest human beings ever. that wasn't working. i didn't like that one as much. that was bad. >> i said what do you think about a cognitive test? he said, sir, there is a question. >> then you get to the end questions. very few people could answer those questions. >> chair, hat, badge, necklace. >> a giraffe, tiger, this and that, a whale. which one is the whale? >> person, woman, man, camera, tv. they say that's amazing. how did you do that? >> i aced it twice. i aced it. >> i aced both of them. >> aced it, every question right. >> most of us are wondering who said that's amazing, right?

there's more. now for the chaser. over the last week in this country local news stations owned by the sinclair broadcast group which controls nearly 200 local tv outlets all across the country, millions of viewers, lots of our neighbors. those stations have been airing a story, tv package, with nearly the exact same script about reporting from the "wall street journal" that was highly criticized for being highly critical about president joe biden's mental acuity. >> "the wall street journal" -- >> "the wall street journal" out with new reporting -- >> calling the mental fitness of president joe biden. >> president joe biden's mental fitness being questioned. >> as our national correspondent tells us, the issue could be an election decider. >> the issue could be an

election decider. >> the issue could be an election decider. >> could it be an election decider? >> the only difference in the script was whether or not there was a question mark after could it be an election decider, right? identical scripts pushed out to local news stations. those broadcasts first caught the attention of the news letters' popular information. the segments are talking about what they have regurgitated a piece of reporting in "the wall street journal." there's reporting that goes, behind closed doors president joe biden was showing signs of slipping. the only person quoted on the record is former speaker kevin mccarthy who after his dealings with joe biden actually described president joe biden as, quote, sharp and capable. he's faced blowback from democrats, people like nancy

pelosi and chuck schumer who offered their accounts of president joe biden behind the scenes to "the wall street journal." their quotes and characterizations of the president didn't make it into the final edited version of the story. new republic, quote, it's not the first time that sinclair has appeared to be running a conservative propaganda campaign. in 2019 dozens of the company's tiny stations were caught airing an identical editorial about the dangers of false news. here's what that looked like. >> our greatest responsibility is to serve our treasure value communities. >> the eastern iowa communities. >> michigan communities. >> we're proud of the quality, balanced journalism that cbs 4 news produces. [all speaking ] >> who needs state tv, right?

it is different from fox, so different. it's a different story. it's a newscast that gets you when you're open, when you're watching your local newscast, when you're taking in information about the weather and the local parades, local holidays, local figures. our question today, is it a right wing disinformation operation as we head into the 2024 campaign? president of media matters angela caruso, plus charlie sykes is here. at the table the host of on brand donny deutch and msnbc political analyst mark casey. i peaked at fox news. i turned it on when trump was convicted and when hunter biden was convicted.

i use it to understand the depths of right wing detachment from reality. this is different. this is softer and probably more effective. nothing illegal about it. it's an important thing to have on the radar. i hope it's something the biden campaign has on the radar as we head into the meat of the general election conversation. >> here's what we've got to come to terms with. life and the media are not fair. they're getting less and less fair and things are frightening. you have "wall street journal" running a horribly sourced piece saying biden is unfit. then you have local news people more insidiously reading a script about it. you know what the answer is? a 90-minute debate with joe biden. he has to answer the bell. the democrats haven't done themselves a favor by not having him out there as much as he should be. this all gets answered. the media is a problem. it's disgusting.

we can wring our hands about it or get behind a candidate that will show up and answer the question. the other candidate hopefully will show he's an idiot. the media isn't fair. it's getting worse. joe biden has to answer the bell two weeks from tomorrow. >> what do you make -- i asked rachel this yesterday. what do you make of the fact that fox isn't carrying trump's speeches? >> it's state tv. we know why. i sat on the show and said let's end this trial so we can get him back out there. it's ridiculous that where trump gets a mulligan that biden doesn't get -- i was having lunch with somebody talking about this speech to a friend of mine who is a swing voter. he goes, yeah, he's really funny. he gets these bizarre style points that people overlook the

babbling insanity of what he's saying. there's entertainment value. it's real and not fair. biden doesn't have that. he's stately, but he's not entertaining. this very educated man sat there and said, yeah, but he's funny. i said he's incoherent. yeah, he's crazy, but he's funny. it's not fair. the stakes are high. the world is not a fair place. media is grotesque and democrats have to answer the bell. joe biden has to answer the bell. >> angela, i mispronounced your last name. i apologize. jump in on how we can do a better job in the cycle. this is trump's third run. what are we still getting wrong? >> a couple things. i agree the media is not fair. we should accept that. as you needed in the monologue what sinclair is doing is insidious. you have a right wing operation

that's willing to go further than fox news, as they've done in the past, and they're doing it under a lot of banners. trusted sources, cbs, abc, nbc, that's the way affiliates work. be realistic about it. that gets to the bigger thing of how do you deal with donald trump? as somebody who has watched, it's wild to say, 612 donald trump speeches since the 2016 election, they're not the same as they were in 2016 and 2020. my hunch is that most of the media, most of the reporters covering him, have not watched a full speech in years. the reason is that's significant is that they'll see how much he's declined. there may have been entertainment value with trump in the past. there's not much entertainment now. there's not fresh material. it's revenge, frustration, anger, confusion.

it doesn't have the same engagement. that gets to the point raised earlier. it's why fox news into incurring it. it's not as good for their business. it's not a ratings draw. if we're going to cover this honestly, we want people to force themselves to sit through a full speech just to get a sense of how much it changed. you would not see as much hang writing in mainstream media about the discrepancies between joe biden and donald trump's mental acuity once somebody saw the current state of donald trump. not the snippets of him yelling as he walks into a room, but how he speaks for a full hour. what donny said is on point. that debate can be a pivot point. it's going to force a lot of people who haven't tuned in for a long time to get a sense of how bad it's gotten. that feels like the first step. >> let me ask you -- let me do

one thing. let me play more of him and i'll ask you the second step. we want to get further than the bow. >> i said let me ask you a question. he said nobody ever asked this question. it's because of m.i.t., my relationship to m.i.t., very smart. i said what would happen if the boat sank from its weight and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery and the battery's under water and there's a shark ten yards over there. by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. i watches guys justifying it today. they weren't that angry. they bit off the young lady's leg because they were not hungry, but they misunderstood who she was. these people are crazy. he said there's no problem with sharks. they just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. got decimated. there's a shark ten yards away

from the boat, ten yards or here. do i get electrocuted? >> angelo, i have been hawkish on -- we were the first show to stop airing sarah huckabee sanders briefings because in my opinion and my experience at the white house she debased the podium. i think i might be one of the first shows here that stopped taking trump live ever. i didn't take him live ever outside the trial because it feels dangerous. post january 6th we weren't talking about violence in an abstract manner. it was a reality. my question for you, do i have it wrong? >> things change. you were a vanguard. you have been. i think the mere fact that you're asking that question right now is a through line to how you approached this. how do we cover this effectively and fairly and use professionalism to adapt to the landscape. it's not been wrong, but there needs to be a sober

reassessment. i don't think it's about covering empty podiums or hyping it up for entertainment value. there's something -- again, i watched 612 of these speeches. i know the ebs and flows and the stories. a lot of times i can tell you what truth social post he pulled it from or what fox news story made it into his speech. what i can say definitively is they're very muddled and confused. in the past when they sounded confused, there was connectivity at least for the audience. they knew what he was talking about. it's not the same anymore. i'm not saying there should be an overcorrection in covering him, but there's been a lot of discussion about joe biden's age. last summer the national news was eight times more likely -- we looked at three months of coverage. eight times more likely to talk about joe biden's age and mental state without mentioning donald trump's age. the narrative got lopsided.

even at minimum putting up segments like that, you would find multiple of them, starting to ask the question of what is going on here? it sounds weird and seems tit for tat. it's different. it's about his being able to put together a coherent thought right now. i think it's an important question. he could be a little more exposed to what trump represents. it's no more fun and games. it's vicious and vile. the veneer is gone. there's a little bit of wwe kind of style. that's gone. there's nastiness and venom and revenge. to explain that raw and unfiltered, not telling them about it, letting them see it is important for voters to get back into the blood stream. >> charlie sykes, this is something i wrestle with on a daily basis. we put this show together every

day and talk the most about how much trump to show, right, because it's -- it's this balance between what angelo is talking about, not covering up for his weaknesses. his weaknesses are abundant. i would ask you one more question. i don't have any answers today. i just have questions. trump has a reptilian survival sense. he always has. he seems to understand how dangerous his words about the military are. that's been swatting like a bug that ends up on its back. a bug is sympathetic. it's never good to go to nature to talk about trump. there's been a flailing. the idea that his own campaign is aware of how damaging his own words are seems to suggest we're at least asking the right questions. >> you're definitely asking the right questions. look, obviously you don't carry him live. you don't have the empty podium. you don't turn over your air time to him. i have to tell you, nicolle, i

laughed out loud several times during the montage you played earlier. that is the kryptonite for donald trump. i don't find him funny, but the one thing he doesn't want is people to be laughing at him, how absurd he is. i think this is -- this is part of the key. you don't carry him live, but you carry the sound bites. that was enough to illustrate how his mind works. i was listening to claire mccaskill on your show and she made an interesting point. if you were to show a similar group of undecided voters, put them in a room, show them just that clip of donald trump talking about the sharks and then show them joe biden's speech at d-day. how many of those people would go, yeah, i want donald trump back in the white house? i want to do that again. >> yeah, it's such a good point. >> pushing back against sinclair, i agree with donny.

some of it is life is not fair. it's the media ecosystem. we know this. if you watch those sinclair broadcasts many of them want to think of themselves as journalists, a legitimate journalists. some are affiliated with fox. some are affiliated with cbs. i think the kinds of montages you're playing were the exposure that really challenges that. if they find that people are ridiculing them, if, in fact, they look silly, if they look nonjournalistic, that might pique some of their consciouses or maybe the audience will see it's not the safe weather and traffic that we were expecting. part of that is turning around the right's great success of

ridicule and saying look at this guy. play this. we don't have to play an hour and a half. i agree with angelo that i would love to force people to watch a full speech. that's not going to happen. you play that sound bite that you played about the shark and people are going to go, what did i just listen to? what is going on inside this man's mind? that's the kind of thing that donald trump does not want. he doesn't mind if we're mad at him. he would hate the fact we're laughing at him. >> it's such a good point. i mean, i guess the piece of it -- watch out. we have two whole hours every day. maybe it's time to do an anatomy of a speech. i'm thinking out loud. maybe it's time to take the speech -- i was ticked off sunday fox hadn't aired it and he was particularly in coherent. we looked for it. it wasn't carried on fox. the chunks i've seen are hard to

find. there are chunks on the internet. maybe it's time to do an anatomy of a trump speech and proportion it out. angelo, it would look like how much retribution, how much incoherence, how much other. i mean, it really is important for people to understand why trump talks about every fourth day about his own, quote, acing of a screen meant to screen out and give families and individuals some information if they're worried about sort of the dementia category of diseases. >> i think that's right. i also think to back up for a moment that, you know, i've been talking to voters across the country and the past six months. we need to acknowledge while it may not be fair, the majority of americans are telling us in polls and interviews they are deeply disappointed with both of these candidates. they're both deeply unlikable.

there's a lot of disappointment that they are both older. i think that we could go a long way to acknowledging that biden isn't as young as he once was. that is actually the acknowledge that allows you to differentiate between someone being older and someone being unfit. i don't understand why we haven't seen more distinction in that. yeah, he's older. that doesn't mean that he is unfit. in fact, if you listen to his speeches and look at his record, he's been a very effective president. there's a lot of ageism there. rather than saying, yeah, maybe, you know, next time we want more democratic candidates or more candidates that are younger. fine. i have experience. here's what i've done. >> hang a lantern around a political vulnerability.

>> yes. then you bring out donald trump and say, first of all, they're both old. >> they're separated by 33 months. >> one is unfit. i think that distinction has not been made. >> what's that ad look like? i have to sneak in a break. you make up the ad. >> now i have two minutes. >> we'll come back with donny's ad. we're getting somewhere. so much more work to do at the table. still to come the mar-a-lago classified documents criminal case has by all appearances basically been put on pause indefinitely. at best it's moving at a slow base. our friend andrew weissmann will way in and says judge cannon made a misstep perhaps giving special counsel jack smith an opening. and there's a third tape of supreme court justice samuel alito to play for you.

this time he complains about the investigative journalism, the reporting that's brought the courts questionable ethics out into the open. we'll look at the push to get answers about what this governing self-body is going to do if anything about it. that's up next on "deadline: white house." don't go anywhere today. e: white house. don't go anywhere today. -dad, what's with your toenail? -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here!

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71% think that people report the news accurately, local news. 68% think that local television and print outlets cover the most important stories. 63% believe their local outlets are transparent and 61% think they do a good job keeping an eye on local political leaders ft there's nothing transparent about the sinclair packages. >> no. we really draw the distinction of fox because the audience knows. >> you know you're at mcdonald's. >> local news is a different thing. it's your next door neighbor telling you the truth. that's what's so heinous. you asked me to come up with an ad. mara framed it well. you have to quit making it about old versus not old.

the ad is simple. you put on the graphic, fit. joe biden at the state of the union. then you show trump, not fit. each one of trump's is funny and you go it's all fun and games until it comes to nuclear weapons. anything you've been seeing that you may not think is disqualifying contrast it with biden. you really make it -- you do the barry goldwater, the famous ad with the daisy. you have to bring it up. this guy might be old, but his hand on the button is okay. this guy's hand on the button is not okay. i would bring it back to end the world stuff. >> as a media we try to understand how the huge stories -- his own former vice president not covering him. how that doesn't have resonance. pence will not endorse donald trump. neither will mark esper, his defense secretary.

mark milley has said i report to the constitution, not a king. people don't know where to put all of these other trusted sources, right? i think if you change the question to fit or unfit it's also sort of an outlet for those testimonials. >> and the campaign has said loud and clear they want to make this about contrast. you have to do that. at the end and i've said this in different forms, trump is -- we all know hour scary and dangerous that is. you have to scare people. if they're on the fence -- we're talking about 700,000 voters out of 330 million, the true votes in play. it's a gut decision. they've had eight years of facts on both sides. you want to get them in that booth where it's just -- you know, i may not be with biden, but i can't go there. i worry about my grandchildren. barry goldwater daisy head. >> charlie, there's a lot of

muscle memory for people who have historically voted for republican candidates, those messages being effective. >> absolutely. i want to put an exclamation point behind what donny said. we had a lot of rhetoric about democracy and freedom and they're all very potent. having donald trump with his finger on the nuclear button is a visceral point. it takes all the things we've been talking about, you know, how erratic he is, how dangerous he is. it puts it in a term that's impossible to ignore. you know, i came of age -- i remember the 1964 campaign as the first campaign. i remember how powerful that is. i remember my grandfather talking. he asked me -- i remember this conversation. he said, you know what this race is about? it's about nuclear weapons. it's about who you want controlling, you know, the nuclear bomb. i still remember that. it was -- it did shape and form

me. we need a game changer. we need a way to break out of the same old same old. i think donny's suggestion is very, very powerful. people may be -- may think that donald trump is funny, he's entertaining, kind of like the chaos, whatever. at least i won't be bored by it. once you put it on the table, do you understand this man will control the nuclear bomb? that changes the conversation. >> angelo, folks who were in and around donald trump in places like the tank, which is where they do the military operations briefings and other sensitive briefings or the sit room, almost always emerge terrified. you had mattis quick over cause, over a difference of opinion on trump's decisions on syria. you had kelly describe him as the most damaged human being he

ever met. esper won't society for him. mark milley rebuked his role in the lafayette square protest and saying he's loyal to the constitution. you have all these people who saw trump with his hands on the nuclear codes, the person who carried the football walking behind donald trump. how important is it to get their voices on the question? >> it's extremely important and the media's important. those things get out at the national level and they're not penetrating at the local level. that big report that came out about a month ago that polling showing was relevant against all ideologies and political lines that trump reportedly made an offer for oil executives if they put $1 billion in a pack for him he would roll back a bunch of biden legislation. that's a scandal.

not a single story about that on local media in battleground states except for one small mention of it at one station. to your point, that stuff isn't penetrating at the local level either. it's for a variety of reasons. the effect is that not only people aren't exposed to it, but more importantly they don't have the structure. donny was getting at the importance of local media. it's not just that people trust it, but it resonates in a different way. i can respond and act on that information because they have a better structure -- even to change their minds or calculus based off what the medium is. i think it's important, but the media is important and i haven't seen enough of that. a lot of that is the failure of local media. it's getting beaten up, i get that. it's also on the political side. a piece of the campaign has to

reorient around this as well. we can't just whine about it being unfair, but it is critical. >> i find this so exciting. i have said this campaign is going to matter. every news cycle is going to matter. angelo articulated why it matters. there's so much information that hasn't reached people running around their normal lives. not just where these local stations are because in your circles outside our jobs people are running around. they're chasing their kids. they're fixing a leaky -- they're busy. the opportunity to inform with straight up facts is right there for the taking. the other piece that's important is there are groups involved that have never been involved before. republicans against trump are creating what angelo talked about, permission structures for

people who don't like neither to say, no, i don't have to zombie myself along and pull the lever for donald trump. >> completely. i think all the facts and information needed by joe biden to win this election are out there. all the republicans who will refuse to vote for donald trump, all the members of the military who will refuse to vote for donald trump, the list goes on. images of january 6th. roe v. wade falling. the question is how do you get those facts to people who maybe aren't reading the national newspapers? maybe they're not watching their local news, sinclair or not. you have to acknowledge that democrats have been at a disadvantage in this for a generation because of the right wing media infrastructure that has been built up. i think then you have to reach people on social media. you have to go to tiktok. you have to go to instagram. you have to go to facebook. you have to beat the pavement and knock on doors. that kind of effort is going to

be, i think, what makes the difference in this election between, you know, the small number of people that are going to swing for biden or swing for trump. i think that's what makes this election so close. i also just think, as donny said, the more distinctions you can make between these candidates, and they are vast. they're very different human beings. the better. what donald trump has done is say all politicians are the same. you know what, it's not true. that's what part of what democrats have to do. they have to make that case and say, no, there is a difference and your life will be different if you vote for trump versus biden. >> the trump story is deadening and flattening. you're right. they benefit from, even if i can't convince you i'm acing this test, i'll make you think everyone sounds like this. my favorite character in my favorite movie, sidney allen

wade, we're waiting for sidney allen wade to show up. >> you've been doing a good job of it. >> my favorite part of her little riff. angelo, charlie, donny and mara, thank you so much for making me smarter and let's hope better with this conversation. up next, we'll turn to the classified documents criminal case and look at whether or not the judge made a legal gaffe, something that she could pay a price for down the road. it's so far gone unnoticed except by andrew weissmann. we'll have that conversation next. ssmann we'll have that conversation next wait! t-mobile has home internet? ♪ what a feeling! ♪ ♪ to have t-mobile now! ♪

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it really hasn't been happening in the last year. it's been happening since about a month after i took office. from the time i took office i began to get threats. those threats come in emails. those threats come in phone calls, text messages, any which way you can imagine. at some point the threats became where i had to leave my home. i've been out of my home since the first year in office. >> life in trump's america. she's not alone. manhattan district attorney alvin bragg, judge juan merchan, jake smith have all faced attacks because they've sought to hold donald trump accountable in the same way any of us would be held accountable. someone who has not been the subject of the ex president's

wrath publicly judge aileen cannon. she's overseeing the classified documents case against him. that may be because judge cannon has seemingly do everything they can do to imperil, according to bill barr, the most straightforward, open and shut, guilty and can be in the eyes of people who know these sorts of things prosecution of donald trump. as we reported yesterday, judge cannon took an unusual step of striking a paragraph from special counsel jack smith's indictment of trump that referred to trump sharing classified information. that was on the heels of her decision to schedule a number of hearings on questionable motions later this month. further adding to the backlog, very real backlog, of unresolved issues in this case. joining our conversation andrew weissmann is here.

andrew, you have a specific thing you think she may have messed up. give me the bigger picture. what's going on here? >> well, nicolle, there's no good news because the big picture on the mar-a-lago case is that she has done what i think she intended to do, which is to make sure that this case would not see a jury before the election. it's something that juan merchan made sure would happen. donald trump does not want to see any of these cases, for somebody who says it's a witch hunt and he's innocent, he doesn't want to have a jury in fact hear the evidence and she's making sure that is not going to happen. even if she ultimately gets pulled off the case by the 11th circuit, the court of appeals that oversees her, it's too late. there's no way for an appellate court to rule on that and have someone come in. she succeeded in what i totally

agree with you is the most straightforward case and one that is endangering all of our national security. it could not be more serious. >> what is the evidence that makes clear that what it feels like and looks like is happening, is happening? she seems at every point do the thing that most helps donald trump. >> you know, it's big and small. you want big examples. big examples are that she was reversed at the outset of the case not once but twice by the 11th circuit. that's a very conservative 11th circuit. it's a conservative court of appeals. it's because her rulings were not just legally wrong, but they're legally wrong for donald trump. it's not that she makes legal errors, you know, for the

government. then there's small ways in which donald trump will mislead her about trial dates and what he's doing in other courts and when it's brought to the court's attention she yells at the government for how they brought it to her attention. they seek last-minute extensions and she grants it without sort of giving the same kind of sort of bench slapping that she give gives to the government for every minor foot fault, even when there wasn't a foot fault. so, you know, it comes down to big and small she is making errors and they're all one way. so i think that's the reason that it's really impossible -- i really tried to give her the benefit of the doubt when the indictment was brought and thought maybe after two reversals by the 11th circuit she would honor her oath. i just don't think there's any evident of that. >> and i guess watching it from the outside it feels like this was apparent so early. when as you said this

conservative circuit overruled her. judge derry was involved at one point because she had to send things to another jurisdiction because she didn't think it was fair to look at all the things seized along with the classified documents. it feels like there were so many markers early on. i wonder if jack smith would look back and -- did he have another choice? was there any place else he could have brought these charges? >> hindsight is 20/20. it's easy to look back and say he should have moved to recuse her earlier and not given her the benefit of the doubt. understanding the law to remove a judge is and should be very difficult. you can't just not like a judge's ruling and say i want a new judge. on terms of venue, i think he also did the right thing. i mean, this is where -- you

know, you see an example of president biden playing it straight with respect to the rule of law and that's what jack smith did, which is there was no place where all the charges could naturally be brought. it would have looked like real forum shopping. he played it straight. he brought it where all of the charges could be brought. he understood there was at least a one in three chance that he would get judge cannon, and he did. you sort of hope that people will take their oaths of office seriously. then the latest is, you know, she weighed in on an issue that was before judge merchan about unanimity and she again gratuitously ruled against the government in a way that will come back to haunt her. >> i want to ask -- you're never on without having to also come and help us talk ourselves through breaking news. this news breaking on capitol hill. the gop led house of

representatives has voted to hold attorney general merrick garland in contempt of congress for refusing to hand over audio tapes of special counsel robert hur's interview of president biden. the house is in possession of that transcript and has been for a long time. andrew weissmann, it feels like every day we have a new chapter or new piece of evidence in the perversion of the role of law, the opposite of what you described jack smith and joe biden doing in terms of playing it safe and this all-out assault on the rule of law from the right. >> i'm going to borrow a phrase from president barack obama. you know, we are in the midst of silly season. we have not seen a lot of adult supervision in the house and the

idea that impeachments are being handed out as retaliation as opposed to reserving that for the most egregious conduct is another sign of the way in which donald trump and his enablers have really debased washington and institutions that i know you and i, nicolle, absolutely revere. and so it's very, very painful to see that denigration. there's nothing that merrick garland has done that warrants this. they have the transcript. the reason for the audio tape would be solely to see if they can make political hay out of it. that's not the role of the department of justice. this is not something that they traditionally do. they're adhering to that norm which is something that they should be doing which is adhering to what they would do regardless of whether it would help or hurt the sitting

president, whether it would help or hurt the republicans or the democrats. you cannot think of a better time for merrick garland to be making that point when he has been the attorney general overseeing an investigation of the sitting president, overseeing and appointing a special counsel for prosecution, a successful one, of the president's son and one that is going to come up -- a second one for the president's son in september and ongoing cases democratic senator, it is just impossible to think that he is playing politics or if he were, he's doing it awfully badly. >> andrew weissmann making sense of it all for us. thank you very much for spending time with us on both of these stories. it was nice to see you, my friend. when we come back, the oklahoma supreme court on the decision on what was likely the final attempt at seeking justice for the hundreds of people murdered in the 1921 tulsa race

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. [ serene music playing ] thanks for coming to our clinic, welcome to the wayborhood. the wayfair vibe at our place is western. my thing, darling? shine. gardening. some of us go for the dramatic. how didn't i know wayfair had vanities in tile?

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it destroyed what was known at the time as black wall street. since that attack, 103 years ago, there has been no legal or financial accountability at all. joining us now is my colleague, nbc news correspondent antonia hylton. today felt like it was about more than just state supreme court in oklahoma denying this case. >> i agree. but in a way, you know, i'm not surprised by this. and i think the community surrounding these two women, these two survivors who were leading the way on this lawsuit since 2020. i don't think that they are surprised, even if they are heartbroken right now. you know, for anyone who hasn't been aware of what's going on here, these two survivors, 109, 110 years old, lesie randall, and viola fletcher, both called mother by people in the greenwood area, broader oklahoma, they have been fighting for this, advocating for years, first to get a basic

level of education about the race massacre instituted in the public schools there, then to bring this lawsuit to push for some kind of accountability in this moment. it's an interesting lawsuit. they went through this public ordinance approach that they were witnesses to this, they saw people died. they have memories of bodies piled up in the streets, the smells and sights of burning buildings all around them as young children. so this is a case in which you have actual witnesses, actual people who could have been made whole, very different from other kinds of reparations arguments, we're talking about several layers of descendants, properties that have changed hands. that's not the case in this story. what this represents today is a road that's essentially over, a door that is closed here. and a community now that is going to have to go back to square one and figure out, well, what does justice look like if we have been denied in the courts but also by policy makers in oklahoma who not only have refused to take action on this, but have passed laws that are

making it challenging for educators to just talk about the story right now. >> i was going to say, was this taught, i didn't learn about this. >> especially in tulsa, the schools make an extra emphasis and make a period of time for a number of years. because of a new law there, restricting the ways teachers can talk about race in history. what i hear from oklahoma teachers and educators consistently, they have to go to the superintendent to ask for permission to simply say, the mob that attacked these people was racist. motivated by race, that it was an all white mob attacking an all black community that their motivations were clearly to strip that community of all of its economic resources, everything that it had built and become and that they were nervous if they do use those very direct and clear terms, which are backed up by facts and photographs and records, that they could lose their jobs. that's the environment right now for educators in oklahoma, and

so, you know, it's a kind of dizzying moment, there has been this push and progress. also now you see this door close, and what educators describe as frankly a very icy environment when it comes to these conversations about history. >> it's amazing, we talk about them in the abstract, but this is so specific and so painful and real. thank you so much for being here, and helping us talk about this story. the one and only, antonia hylton. still to come, believe it or not, there are more secret audio recordings of one justice, samuel alito, whose gripes with the media. that's next. media. that's next. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry. ♪ ♪ have you always had trouble losing weight to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. and keeping it off? same. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪

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the highest court in the land with the lowest ethical standards, these are the only governmental officials in the land who are not governed by a binding ethics code. there's no process by which we can hold any of them accountable, and so it violates

the essential principle that james madison identified as the heart of our justice system, which is that no man can be a judge in his own cause. >> hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york, with our legal or congressional method to hold supreme court justices accountable as jamie raskin is explaining there. at this moment, the best that anyone can do for our country is to shine a bright light on what the supreme court justices are saying and doing when we do see them. and i guess at this point, simply hope that some of that scrutiny, some of that transparency will lead to change. we on this program have been covering revelation after revelation after revelation, brought to us by the courageous investigative journalists and in this case, progressive activists about justice samuel alito and his wife's shockingly brazen political and unethical behavior. if you can believe it, there's more. today there's another day. the audio of alito, we have

played over the last few days is from lauren windsor, the progressive activist. she's known to pose as an ally to republican and conservative figures, and then record them speaking comfortably to someone they think sees the world the way they do. they make candid comments, a colleague of hers also spoke with the justice in a conversation where he took direct aim at the media. nbc news that has not been able to confirm if any edits were made to these recordings and nbc news has reached out to justice alito about any comments he wants to make about this. we have received no response. take a listen to this new tape. >> why do you think the supreme court is being so attacked and being so targeted by the media these days? >>. >> well, i think it's a simple reason, they don't like our decisions and they don't like how they anticipate we may decide some cases that are coming up. that's the beginning of the end of it.

and there are -- there are groups that are very well funded by groups that have spearheaded these attempts. that's what it is. >> like who? >> well, pro publica. pro publica gets a lot of money, and they have spent a fortune investigating clarence thomas, for example. and they've some of that to me too. they look for any little thing they can find, and they try to make something out of it. >> so stop right here, one of the nine human beings who sits on the united states supreme court thinks that pro publica has spent a fortune investigating clarence tom a why would they have to do that? could it be because there's no ethics code, no transparency, that only pro publica was able to learn how much we didn't

know, how much clarence thomas didn't disclose. samuel alito thinks the problem is the fortune propublica spent learning things that happened to be true. someone who doesn't like a microscope is not going to like what pro publica did. journalists exposed not everything justice thomas had ever done like alito said there, just the things that would have gotten other government officials in a whole lot of hot water, in a whole lot of trouble. things like being gifted extremely lavish and expensive vacations, or having a billionaire friend pay for your grand nephews private school tuition and then not telling anybody that had happened. pro pro publica ends up winning pulitzer prize on their record, on their very bitter, very angry body, and justice clarence thomas ultimately cops to just

about everything they report. he ultimately discloses the trips he was gifted that pro publica reported on. a spokesperson responded to the claims of funding by ideological groups by saying this, pro publica exposes abuses of power no matter which party is in charge, and our newsroom operates with fierce independence. no dor knows are made aware of stories before they are published. lauren windsor told rolling stone who she gave her audio to that alito's comments about pro publica are indicative of the grievance he carries or the thumbing his nose at ethical standards he thinks he should not be subjected to. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends, the executive director and founder of court accountability, alex aaronson joins us, he spoke about the crisis of supreme

court ethics, and joins us today. and mark alias is back and the two "new york times" reporters, we had the privilege of speaking to last week. national religion correspondent, elizabeth dius, and lisa lair, authors of the fall of roe, the rise of new america. an embarrassment of riches, i don't know where to start. i'm going to start with you, mark alias. the fantastic coverage of the supreme court is that it's always worse than what pro publica is able to publish based on documents and undeniable facts they're able to reveal. alito singles them out and trashes them, but it's really haunting. >> yeah, it's really interesting that you have a justice of the supreme court who is essentially blaming the media. let me point out that the first amendment to the constitution envisions a free press and a

press that is essential to a functioning democracy. it's a little chilling to hear a justice on the supreme court sort of lament the role that the media is doing in reporting, as you point out, things that turn out to be entirely true. and i think that it's also important to keep in mind that there are sort of three parts to what the justice said. the first is a lamenting that things that were private were made public. the second is really the underlying question that i hope people keep their eye on the ball on which is, why are justices accepting these gifts? i mean, there are lawyers all around washington, d.c. that advise people in the executive branch and in congress, whether they can stand up or sit down when they eat certain food. whether they are allowed to accept a baseball ticket if they sit in one section or another, and that the justices seem to, you know, operate under an entirely different sensibility of what kind of gifts they can receive. finally, you know, and the authors of the book on roe can

speak to this. we are awaiting very very important decisions from the supreme court. and those decisions will affect the future of our democracy, whether donald trump will have complete immunity, whether women and other groups will have fundamental rights, and just the temperament that came through on those tapes from justice alito are not what you would expect from a justice. i would contrast it with what you heard the chief justice, who i oftentimes disagree with. his temperament was very appropriate. we shouldn't lose sight of what it means for the litigants before them when you have a justice who speaks this way in private. >> lisa, there is a long history of republican, and i guess democratic, but i worked on republican campaigns, complaints about the media. but it has never included the money that a news organization spent to reveal something that was absolutely true, and that's really sort of the indictment of

pro publica that they, quote, spent a fortune, investigating clarence thomas, stories that were so accurate. not only did they win a pulitzer, but clarence thomas exposes the gifts that he told we the people about. alito is one of nine people who sit in this body, the supreme court, one of nine people in charge of upholding the rule of law and the constitution in our country, and his open disdain for the quote fortune spent by pro publica investigating clarence thomas, not something that turned out to be untrue, not something that wouldn't have been disclosed if he were a judge on any other bench, any other body, any other court in the land, but just the gripe, just the indignation that that happened is extraordinary. >> yeah, it's really extraordinary. look, investigating public officials is what we as independent journalists do, but i think it's something that's a little bit foreign to the court. part of what we show in the book, the fall of roe, the

decision in dobbs is the case that ended roe as a precedent, really changed, helped shift public opinion about the court, and helped the public see the court more as a political body than what the court is supposed to be and what they consider themselves to be which is this impartial temper of judicial impartiality. so i think part of what happened after that decision is the court was brought down to the same level as the other bodies in washington, congress, the white house, and they start getting the same treatment from the media as politicians, they were investigated. their histories were investigated, their personal lives were investigated. their conflicts of interest was investigated. maybe that's work that should have been done in a more fulsome way in the decision in dobbs, it's certainly happening now, and i think it's part of the shift in public opinion about the court since that decision. >> alex, let me show you

something that congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez said in that interview, we started where she's standing next to jamie raskin, on "all in" with chris hayes last night. >> to have any one of our coequal branches be complete unaccountable to the others is paving the path to authoritarianism, tyranny, the abuse of power in the united states, and it is structurally, completely unsustainable. it's not a question of if congress has jurisdiction and power over the supreme court, it is what power are we going to exercise in order to rein in a fundamentally unaccountable and rogue court. >> alex, it strikes me that she is one of the first people asking the more accurate question, what do you think of that? >> representative ocasio-cortez

is absolutely right. it falls to congress to take this seriously. americans are seeing this crisis of corruption at our court and recognizing that things are out of kilter. this is not how it's supposed to be, and as representative raskin said in the introductory remarks, it cannot be that the court can police itself here, that they can be the jury for their own trial. and we have seen just how badly that has worked throughout this past year of devastating scandals across this branch. from clarence thomas, we learned, receiving upwards of $5 million from billion nascars who have interests before him, and justice alito flying the two maga war banners outside of his house. a symbol of the january 6th insurrection and the other a symbol of the christian nationalists that was installed to receive. we are in a position of democratic crisis because of the supreme court, its rulings, ruling for the very billionaires and we can expect more devastating rulings to limit the

ability of government, to protect our clean air and water and the attacks on women's freedoms, in particular the dobbs decision that that flag so powerfully represents. >> alex, in your meetings with congress, are you optimistic that they are going to use the tools at their disposal? in their public interviews on this show, at least, they have not projected much confidence that they have the ability to do much of anything. >> you're right. i think the senate in particular, which has traditionally been the branch of congress, you know, the house with the, you know, advice and consent power to confirm judges does not see much of a path forward here because of republican obstruction on common sense questions of ethics and reform. questions that used to be matters of consensus, bipartisan agreement, things that people across the political spectrum, independents and republicans alike feel like must be taken seriously. and now that bipartisan support for these ideas is long gone, and because of the constraints

that the senate is under, particularly the need to confirm lower court judges, you know, they don't see a path forward to enforce some of the subpoenas and pursue the oversight they need to pursue. there's a lot they can do. they can hold hearings. we have seen from justice alito's neighbor, whom he implicated in flag waving scandals, she has asserts he is not telling the truth about the time line of events. that's something the senate could take up and look at. on the house side, we're seeing the energy, a real understanding of congress's role to take this seriously. all of the powers and tools that the congress does actually have to protect the american people from this authoritarian court. >> elizabeth, you guys write about this sort of christian movement, the godliness, but i want to play what lauren windsor, the activist says to elicit the full-throated endorsem*nt of that idea on

these under cover tapes first. >> i think that the solution really is, like, winning the moral argument. like, people in this country, people leaving god, have got to keep fighting for that to return our country to a place of godliness. >> i agree with you. i agree with you. >> i'm old enough to remember that i agree with you would be a scandal of itself. it gets much worse. the core of the idea expressed to mr. alito that the country must fight the decline of christianity in public life goes beyond the questions of bias and influence in the nation's highest court, antiabortion activists has openly embraced that american democracy needs to be grounded in christian values and guarded against the rise of secular culture. right wing catholics, and evangelicals who oppose transgender rights and the dominance of liberal views in

school curriculums and become a crucial segment of former president trump's political coalition, intermingled with the maga movement that boosted him to the white house and hopes to do so in november. the only thing i would add to that articulation with where they are, they are going to decide whether or not donald trump has absolute immunity in the criminal cases and charges against him. >> this idea of returning america to a place of quote, godliness, this is not language that i think many americans might be familiar with or thinking would be a legal principle. so it's indicative of the entirely new moment that this country is in, especially since the overturning of roe. i mean, our book, the fall of roe, the sub title is the rise of a new america, and it gets at these questions about what is this conservative christian movement that was so powerful, that so many people didn't see, that led to the overturning of roe, where are they going next,

right, and what alito, by talking about godliness was playing into was the language of this entirely -- this right wing conservative christian movement that really, as we show in our book thinks about the questions of democracy in an overarching question, or not question, but story of being within the kingdom of god, for many of these christians, democracy, the story of america is just a small story in the broader story of the kingdom of jesus. and putting that language in, i guess we can talk about financial gifts and like what that means, that kind of influence, but this question of religious influence in the court, especially conservative christian influence, this is the frontier, of all of these kinds of cases that we're seeing and what's really at stake, that i think americans need to understand. understanding the history of how roe fell through our book, that's a way to understand, what

is the rise of america and the role of conservative right wing christianity. >> i don't think people would have felt smacked on the side of the head by the opinions in dobbs. thomas goes after marriage equality, and i think a lot of people thought whoa, whoa, whoa, if you put it in lisa and elizabeth's framework, it's perfectly logical. >> i think one of the great tragedies of this time when we look back in a couple of decades will be how many clear warning signs we had of what was coming and yet so often times people said, that will never happen. you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. he says he wants retribution, he doesn't mean it. don't take him literally. the same thing with the court. people have not paid attention. when you have supreme court justices saying there's no fundamental right to privacy, they're not just talking about abortion, they're talking about

contraception. when you have supreme court justices saying we think we need a return to christianity in the interpretation of the constitution, that is targeting a whole series of rights. some of which people just don't believe that the court could possibly be interested in revisiting. well, i'll tell you what, roe seemed like it was settled precedent or super precedent or precedent upon precedent, any term that we heard conservative nominees use, at the end of the day was tossed away easily. >> even the justices that helped roll it back said in their confirmation hearings. they described it that way. because we have amazing friends here, we're not going to let them go anywhere. we have much more on the crisis of confidence in the united states supreme court, seemingly worsening the news cycle. also ahead, the earth shattering impact of the court's biggest and most reviled decision, the overturning of roe v. wade, we'll be joined by a texas mom forced to flee her home for medical care after the

draconian abortion ban. and surviving russia's brutal war as a i would chao, what made a ukrainian teenager who's here in this country for a top flight academic competition talk to dr. redlenner and the students about how life has changed after two and a half years of war in this country. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. focus! hello t-mobile... hold on... you might want to just... ok stop! just say it like this, “at t-mobile, you can save on every plan, and you get great benefits with magenta status”. magenta status... yuh! i'll show you my magenta status. ok, i'll just do it. check out the t-mobile savings calculator to see how much you can save. and right now, we'll even pay off your phone when you switch! ♪ doo-doo-doo-doo-doo... ♪ [ growl ] ready for the road trip. when you switch! everyone comfortable. yep, there's plenty of space. i've even got an extra seat. wait! no, no, no, no, no. [ gasps ]

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we're back with alex, mark, and let me show you what chief justice john roberts said when windsor approached him.

i don't want to project hope on what is kind of a normal response. let me play that. >> you don't think there's like a role for the court in, like, guiding us toward a more moral path? >> no, i think the role for the court is deciding the cases. would you want me to be in charge of guiding us toward a more moral path? that's for the people we elect, that's not for lawyers. >> again, a bright spot in terms of what we learned about the alitos that does two things. one, it puts the alitos out of the mainstream, even among the conservatives on the united states supreme court, and suggests that robert is impotent to do much to change the perception of the conservative wing of the court. >> yeah, i think that's exactly right, and while alito may be out of the mainstream, he's in line with a powerful minority of conservative christians who want to go further than just eliminating roe and ending federal abortion rates, and who want to strike at all of these different legal precedences.

and things people have taken for granted, particularly in their reproductive lives. it was note worthy today to see the southern baptists, the largest gathering of southern baptists come out against ivf. it shows where this powerful christian minority wants to go and is in that direction. as we show in our book, the past and how they took down roe can really send you a message about where things are going to go in the future. and i think what we saw with roe was that minority push for this shift that went counter in many cases to public opinion, and accomplished it by pushing it through the supreme court, and with the support of justices like alito. >> you know, elizabeth, it is perfectly logical, if you understand the movement that they see themselves a part of. it is repelling the general public. you know, we've got the anti-choice measures falling in red states like kansas and north carolina, ohio, places that don't necessarily vote for

democratic people. they're very much voting against these antiabortion measures. what is the sort of five months ahead look like in terms of the politics of the court? >> well, let me give you an example of just how different these two americas are, and the stakes for what that is. in our reporting for the book, you know, we were documenting the anti-abortion movement. and their power, right, and it was this question, so many of them talked about the spiritual part of this, like was their ability to overturn roe a miracle, and the majority was looking at this and saying, no, this looks like a lot of earthly political power. we were talking just now about the flags that justice alito were talking about flying, and there was a mention of the sacred heart flag, right, justice alito's wife was saying, maybe she would fly the flag of the sacred heart of jesus as a counter symbol against pride

month. what we show in the fall of roe, the decision overturning roe, pushed by conservative catholics, who believed that the fall of roe was a miracle, fell on the day that catholics observe the sacred heart of jesus. it's a day of devotion, honoring jesus's sacred heart, which they believe beats for humanity from the point of conception until natural death. so there's this question which we explore which is was this miraculous. why did maybe roe fall on that day, what is the connection to powerful people like leonard leo for whom that day, as you'll see in the book has a very personal religious significance, and then we hear about justice alito's wife, contemplating making that flag with that specific catholic symbol, which represents a very different vision for america than what liberals want to do, keep the effect of the sexual revolution, seeing the rolling

back of these things, including the direction lisa was saying about potentially banning things like ivf. >> alex, the political opportunity is that it's not just liberals, right? it is 93% of all americans who oppose the abortion bans that some of these groups are championing, which eliminate exceptions in the cases of life of mother. 87% of all americans who oppose the bans champions by some of these religions, i will call them zealots, little girls, 10, 11 years old, have to cross state lines to get an abortion. that is an extremist policy. the vast majority of republicans don't want to live in that country. what is the political opportunity of this moment? >> it's enormous. as more and more americans understand how extreme this agenda is being developed through not just the supreme court's jurisprudence but through their allies, also

supported by dark money from leonard leo in the states, more and more americans are rising up and coming out to the ballot boxes to reject this. it ties, of course to the insulation and accountability that is inherent now in the new supreme court, the maga supreme court, and justice alito's, you know, sense of grievance about being held accountable because, you know, what they've got is a supreme court that is, you know, driving this agenda while also peeling back the levers of democratic accountability through decisions on voter suppression. gerrymandering, and dark money and politics, which present a difficult trap for the american people that reject these outcomes and want to live in a different world. a world not controlled by theocratic values. and so the time, the opportunity is enormous but the time is ripe

and it has to happen now or we will run out of time, and so, you know, here we are in this moment, and i think it really, again, falls to congress to see the threat and respond in, you know, appropriate and urgent fashion. >> marc elias, i think most voters hope that happens, that congress finds their inner aoc and does what she suggests, but i think what republicans, especially this branch of religious conservatives is banking on is that people will be demoralized, this -- they will not recognize their agency. the only people that can do anything is the voters. it's how the architecture of republican campaigns was built at the foundational level for 50 years. how do democrats not just match that but beat it. >> yeah, so look, republicans want the cynics to win. republicans want people to

believe that they are powerless, there's nothing they can do, that the elections are rigged, that the supreme court will overturn their rights and therefore people should just give up hope. hope is the one thing we have going for us. and if every one of the people listening right now recommits themselves to vote in november, vote for joe biden, vote for democrats, vote on the ballot initiatives, that will overturn these terrible decisions or at least limit their impacts. then, we will overcome that cynicism. because at the end of the day, it is up to congress and the president to pass laws. it is up to congress to hold oversight. it is up to congress to pass the john r. lewis advancement right act, the freedom to vote act, to expand women's and other people's individual liberties, but we cannot do that if people give up hope and give in to the sentence. >> this conversation, very much to be continued. a pleasure to have all of you

here in one place. alex aronson, marc elias. elizabeth disa, thank you so much. what conservative court has ushered in, the all-out assault on reproductive rights in red states across the country. one mom from texas forced to flee her home and home state for medical care. we'll share her harrowing story after the break. re we'll share her harrowing story after the break. (dad) we never thought that with verizon, saving on the the best in entertainment was gonna be so easy before... we had to pretend we had seen all these shows... now that we have verizon, we can stop pretending. (vo) disney+, hulu, espn+, netflix and max. all for just $20/mo. only on verizon. (mom) my turn. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪

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i was at risk of organ damage to my kidneys and brain, but i still wasn't dead enough for an exception for abortion care in texas. i was going to have to flee the state where my family has lived for eight generations. and i was terrified. the bounty laws in texas had us worrying about who could turn against us. was it safer to attempt 12 hours in a car through rural texas while i was violently ill. what if i got worse. exceptions to abortion bans are a fiction. they don't exist in texas, and i am living proof of that. >> that was lauren miller, testifying earlier today before a senate subcommittee about the horror that she and countless women are being forced to endure every day after donald trump's hand picked supreme court justices stripped away a constitutional right for the first time ever. in attendance today was kaitlyn cash who was also forced to leave her home state of texas to

get abortion care after she found out at her 13 week ultrasound that her baby was unlikely to survive until birth or would suffocate soon after being born. trying to block women from leaving their homes, their states for abortion care. it's a movement which has been growing in antiabortion states across this country. therefore reality for women all across our country. kaitlyn cash joins us now. i have to thank you for telling your story and for talking about these things. so many women have been through this. so few women are able to talk about it in their life, let alone on tv. so thank you. >> thank you for having me here. it's a horrible thing to have to relive, but as i've been telling people during my visit, if it's something i have to re-live to let women know what it's like in

states with these bans, i'll keep doing it. >> so tell us your story. >> at my 13-week ultrasound, i found out that my second pregnancy, that there was a fetal abnormality. it was skeletal dysplasia, and so during this appointment, i was told that my child's bones would most likely start breaking in utero, due to a condition called brittle bones and then when my child was born, his rib cage would not be able to support normal lung function and so he would most likely suffocate or need extreme medical intervention. at that appointment, my doctor told me that i needed to start thinking about what type of end of life care i would want for my child, and it was a hard stop. and it never occurred to me that this was just 45 days after sb 8 went into effect in texas, and my doctor couldn't even say the word abortion. >> so kaitlyn, you know from

your doctor at 13 weeks that your baby, that you want desperately, it sound like it was a boy. >> yeah, it was a boy. >> is going to suffer, so there's no gray area. if he survives pregnancy, he will suffer. and your options in texas are nothing. so then what happens? >> so we talked in circles, and we kept saying what can we do to help our baby. what can we do as this baby's parents to help the suffering end, and we just didn't get anywhere. and so finally, the doctor looked at me and said, well you should probably get a second opinion but outside of texas, and it was very clear what he was saying, which was we needed to leave the state, and so we walked out into the lobby, and at that moment, they handed me a big stack of papers, and it was my medical records. and they were saying, we can't transfer them anywhere. we can't tell you where to go, good luck, and so on the same day that i was told that my son

wouldn't survive, that this pregnancy that from the moment that test turned positive i had dreamed of this life, the same day i learned that, i was also told to go figure out where to get the health care that i needed, and i went home and immediately fell to my bathroom floor, sobbing, because of this loss, and i had to pick up the phone and start calling clinics, and trying to figure out how do i get them my records. i don't have a scanner at home. what do i do. and it was one of the most traumatic days of my life. >> what happened next? >> so we finally found a clinic, and we, you know, were able -- well, actually found two clinics, and there was completing time lines, and there was a lot of -- some states have -- sorry, some states have waiting restrictions and so i had to sign a lot of paperwork showing that i had read all of

the concerns and that i knew how long and then we had to book travel based on those wait times, and so i was finally able to find one clinic that could get me in, and we had to figure out what we were going to do with my son, what i was i going to tell my employer. i didn't want to put anyone else at risk being caught trying to get me the care that i needed, and so we just left. you know, my husband and i just left. we got on a plane, and we went out of state. and then i had to go to a clinic where they allow protesters, you know, within a certain amount, and i walked past signs that told me i was a murderer. and as i went in to get basic health care to end my child's suffering. >> and this wasn't your last brush with tragedy, and the inability in the year 2023, right, to care for yourself and

your unborn child. tell us what happened next for you. >> so after we returned, i kind of fell into a deep state of depression. i just was having a hard time processing the loss of my child and this whole thing being politicized and just kind of the conversations and things that were happening, but i was able to seek, you know, mental health and my own resources, and i was able to get pregnant a few months later. i unfortunately miscarried that pregnancy. when i went to my doctor, i found out that my body was not processing that miscarriage on its own and i would need mifepristone. i left my doctor's office, went to the pharmacy, and the pharmacist told me they would need more information from my doctor on why i would need this prescription, and i remember just turning around and walking out. because i was actively miscarrying. i was actively bleeding, i said, yeah, i'm not doing this again. i was able to find a pharmacy

that filled it. then i got pregnant again, and i miscarried again, and after that, we chose ivf as our next best journey so that we could try to get a better medical understanding to what was happening, and i was fortunate that my ivf worked, and i was able to get pregnant. and then ten months later, i gave birth to my daughter, and i remember holding her on my chest thinking it's over, like you're here, you know, i can meet you, and my doctor told me that there was a problem. my placenta was not delivering, and they needed to go to the o.r. to have a dnc to remove the remaining tissue, and then we waited and we waited and we waited. i started throwing up. i started shaking violently. they finally took me back to the o.r. there was intense confusion. it was just chaotic, right, not what you expect when they say we're going to take you back for a standard procedure. there was nurses running around. as i'm waiting for the procedure

to start, i felt something on my arm dripping. i grabbed a nurse and looked down, and i was bleeding from my iv. i was going into the hemorrhagic shock. i lost consciousness after that. i woke up sometime later and was told i had lost half of my blood volume, and i should be grateful that i didn't lose my uterus, and after that i was transferred to the icu, and the first night of my daughter's life, i didn't get to spend it with her. i spent it in an icu three floors away, they for some couldn't give me standard medical care for a post partum hemorrhage. >> you are so lucky to be alive, and you are not alone in losing a baby you desperately wanted and wanting to end your son's suffering. you are not alone in needing health care after you delivered your daughter. but you are in a very very small, small, small club of telling your story publicly of

what so many women have endured privately, and i believe i've said this to amanda. i believe you and she and the others who are talking about your most painful and in your case, your harrowing health moments, in amanda's case, the very same, you're helping to change the country and change the trajectory of this moment in our history and saving other women, hopefully from the same fate. i'm so happy for you and your daughter and your family and i'm so grateful to you for telling your story. thank you. >> yeah, thank you for having me and i hope that women take from this story, you don't know the reproductive care you're going to need until you need it, and it's all under attack. emergency care, ivf, miscarriage management, everything is under attack right now, and the only person on the ballot this november that has pledged to get us those rights back is joe biden. >> kaitlyn kash, we'll continue to call on you, hopefully without retraumatizing you, what

you have been through. your story and voice is powerful. thank you very much for sharing it with us. >> thank you. >> we're going to sneak in a break. we'll be right back. k. you're tb d by falls and bleeds, worry follows you everywhere. ♪♪ over 400,000 people have left blood thinners behind with watchman. watchman is a safe, minimally—invasive, one—time implant that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worry, for life. ♪♪ watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime. (dad) we never thought that with verizon, it's one time, saving on the the best in entertainment was gonna be so easy before... we had to pretend we had seen all these shows... now that we have verizon, we can stop pretending. (vo) disney+, hulu, espn+, netflix and max. all for just $20/mo. only on verizon. (mom) my turn.

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while i am a paid actor, and this is not a real company, there is no way to fake how upwork can help your business. upwork is half the cost of our old recruiter and they have top-tier talent and everything from pr to project management because this is how we work now. almost two and a half years in, russia's cruel and unprovoked war in ukraine continues to have a devastating impact on the country and especially its children. according to the ukraine children's action project, more than 22,000 ukrainian children have been injured or killed or abducted. 5 million children have been

displaced from their homes. and 4,000 schools in ukraine have been damaged or destroyed by russia's attacks. exacerbating learning losses and trauma for children who despite all of this, remain quite resilience, ambitious and hopeful about their future. we are seeing that yet again, this week in an extraordinary way. 51 high school students from ukraine arrived monday here in the u.s. from ukraine. they are finalists in the international genius olympian competition in rochester, new york. we are lucky to be joined now by one of them, antonia drawn is 16 years old, from nepro in central ukraine. and dr. irwin redlener, you go first, what are you doing there? >> well, this has been an extraordinary opportunity for us, nicolle. i think about the trauma, we have been here multiple times.

we're going to go back. this is a shining bright light of optimism for a positive future for ukraine. once this war is over, and antonia is one of the 51 students who has come to rochester new york to the rochester institute of technology, we are competing against teams from 66 countries around the world. ukraine had the most applicants of any country in the world, including the u.s., and their projects range from science and technology to creative writing and the arts and antonia here had a spectacular idea about ecology and the importance of a clean environment now, and once the war is over. but she's one of these shining duels of ukraine and ukraine's future. >> antonia, tell us about what life is like in ukraine right now for you? >> for me, it's always been

whole, so i think right now it's mostly home where you can possibly be safe every time. you can sleep like you sleep before. you can think like you think before. so i think it's mostly the home that changed. but, however, we are staying now in ukraine, and this is what it's like. it's always been our life, our family. but now we just really change dramatically. >> antonia, you were 13 or 14 when the war started, what is the biggest difference in day-to-day life for kids your age and younger and older. i think it's the mindset because when i was 14 years old, i never

thought i would be in america ever, but i think the war changed the way we think, the way we feel, and the way we think about the future, how we can change the future, and how it is important to be one of the people who change the world. >> how do you stay focused on your democracies with worries about your country and the war? >> i think it's my family. i have always had a very supportive family. my mom is sometimes really strict, but i feel the love in the strictness, so it's mostly about competitiveness in me, about how i feel about doing things and creating something new. it's never been a problem for me to concentrate. but kids nowadays are really

crying about how they will study, and they see their friends. they are studying mostly online. as they had before because of the situation that had been in front of them, the things that they will see and they see right now are changing them, not only in the way of making them more powerful or understandable, but also in the way of making them feel more insecure. >> i don't know if it's always obvious, but so many people here think about your country and admire your leaders and admire all of you. and it's such a privilege to get to talk to you. i'm going to follow the olympiad this weekend, and make sure i hear how you and your fellow ukrainian students fare in the competition.

antonia dron and dr. irwin redlener, thank you for spending time with us. if you want to learn more about the ukraine children's action project or find out how you can help go to ucap.help. another break for us. we'll be right back. ight back. it even works on colors. i slide tackled. i see that. tide oxi white. (vo) if you have graves' disease, your eye symptoms could mean something more. i see that. that gritty feeling can't be brushed away. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com

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so this is a happy day, a proud day, but also one that in a more perfect world, happier world would have been much brighter. that's because 330 newtown high school seniors graduated today. about 60 of whom, though, will forever bear the burden of having witnessed and thankfully survived a brutal massacre of

their fellow first grade classmates. 20 students died in all, along with six educators. the finer details of the ceremony are a secret, under wraps, not for those of us in the public, and with good reason. those children, those young adults now, and their families have already been through so much. they have been so under public scrutiny these past 12 years, through tragedy, conspiracy theories, a very public defamation trial, the curse of having to relive their trauma after every subsequent school shooting, the rest of us remember where we were, how we felt, what it was like to learn in that dark december day. this afternoon isn't about the rest of us, it is about them. an inspiring group of young people, they scars they never asked for, didn't deserve, but against all odds carried on, in what was no less a remarkable achievement of the human spirit. the newtown graduating class of

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